INTERVIEW: Rabbi Ram Moshe Raved- "Rav Shach wished me 'Good Luck' when he realized I was married and joining the army"

Amid the intensifying discussion surrounding Haredi conscription, Rabbi Ram Moshe Raved, former rabbi of the Air Force and one of the initiators of the Shahar Kachol program, sat down with Eli Dan in the editing room of the documentary series "Faith and Security" to discuss the factors that drove a wedge between the Haredi public and the IDF.

During the interview, Rabbi Raved recounts the surprising blessing he received from Rabbi Schach when he chose to enlist to support his family, and explains how trust between the two sides can be rebuilt.

Full Interview

Greetings to Rabbi Ram Moshe Raved. We’ve gathered here to talk about the relationship between Haredim and the IDF. What we’re mainly interested in is understanding the history of Haredim and the IDF—where it worked, where it didn’t, and what you think the reasons are.

"The Haredi public isn’t against the army. The Haredi public is for Torah study. That idea has defined the relationship between the Haredi community and the army throughout the years. So, in past years, decades ago, there was a pretty fixed path. A person would study in yeshiva, then in kollel, get married, study in kollel, have kids, go out to work—and pass through the army. Because that was the set path, there was no issue. He needed to do it, and that’s what people did."

How many, in your estimation, actually enlisted in those decades, based on what you know?

"Look, the community was much smaller back then, there were far fewer yeshivas. So it’s not fair to come and compare how many enlisted or didn’t, because it was a different community, completely different.

"When I was in a small yeshiva, there were four famous small yeshivas in the country. Today, you have two on every street in Bnei Brak. It’s a totally different thing.

"So, bringing data from then versus now is problematic. Even the secular public that says, ‘Ben-Gurion approved 400…’—how many were there in total? How many boys were there? What does ‘approved 400’ even mean? Out of how many?"

You’re saying that was the standard. Describe the situation for me—your cohort in yeshiva, your father’s cohort, your son’s cohort. What happens?

"It was a fixed path. I myself studied at Hebron Yeshiva, got married, studied in kollel. One day I decided I wanted to enter the workforce. To get to the workforce, you went through the army—that was clear, that was the path. That’s what everyone did, and there was no problem, nor was it seen as unusual."

But the army back then was less adapted to Haredim than all the fancy programs today with special units. And still, you’re saying more enlisted then than do now, I assume.

"There were no programs. Maybe there was the Haredi Nahal of that time, in its earlier version—not the Haredi Nahal that David Hager set up years later. The Haredi Nahal back then was something else, but by my time, it didn’t exist anymore. And yes, there were no programs, but the army looked different, the Israeli street looked different. Everything was different. The distance between the Haredi public and the general public was different too. There was much less disconnection, less distance. So there was no issue for a Haredi person to be in the army."

If you can briefly describe your military path, I understand you held senior roles in the army. Let’s also get to the things you did later in the army to promote Haredi service.

"Look, the Haredi public had nothing against the army, as I said at the start. What happened over the years, especially in the last 15 years, is that people started telling the Haredi public: ‘Friends, you’re studying, you’re parasites! You’re studying? We’ll punish you. There’ll be economic sanctions, criminal sanctions for anyone who doesn’t enlist.’

"The moment they threatened the Haredi public with sanctions on one hand and mocked Torah learners as ‘parasites’ on the other, that’s when the army became an enemy of the Haredi public. An antagonism developed that made Haredim hate the army, to my great sorrow. That’s the situation we’re in today, where a kid wakes up, sees a soldier, and thinks he’s someone problematic. He doesn’t understand that it could be okay."

I’m wondering, what came first? Did Haredim start being less present in the army than in the times you describe, when it was the standard path for those entering the workforce, because they dug in, got exemptions, and those exemptions grew? Or did the disdain for Haredi life and what they do come first? What preceded what? Because I think that’s often the debate.

"Look, the moment people in this country stood up and said, ‘You can’t not enlist,’ it wasn’t because they counted and saw more people—it was because they were against the very principle of Torah study. They were against the idea that Torah study has any importance. The moment they stood up against that, the antagonism was born. Because you can’t go against Haredi ideology. Torah study is Haredi ideology, and when you attack that ideology, you won’t beat the Haredi public."

I completely agree with you, but I’ll take you back to Ben-Gurion’s later letters, where he says, ‘I exempted 400 boys, I thought it was a small thing that wouldn’t grow. Now that I see it’s become such a large number, I take it all back.’

I’ll also take you back to the first committees in the Knesset in the 1950s and 1960s discussing this issue. They explicitly say, and later the Supreme Court in the 1980s too, that ‘quantity becomes quality.’ As long as Haredim were a small group, 4% of the population, a few hundred yeshiva boys, a few thousand getting exemptions, it was tolerable.

But when the Haredi public reaches 20% of a draft cohort—and it will get there, if it’s not already—then they say to Haredim, and I’m asking, how do you fairly address the claim that says, ‘Look, as long as you were small, fine, but now you’re significant, and it hurts the army that you’re not enlisting’?

"Look, in my opinion, we need to stick to the principle that whoever studies should study. Whoever studies, you don’t touch him, no matter how many there are, no matter the quantity. Anyone who studies should study. On the other hand, whoever doesn’t study—into the army. We need to know: whoever doesn’t study goes to the army.

"Of course, the army needs to provide frameworks that suit those coming from the Haredi sector. Obviously, that responsibility falls on the army. But we need to keep the principle: whoever studies, studies. Whoever doesn’t study, goes to the army. And that doesn’t exist today."

You say it doesn’t exist today—do you mean that today there are people who don’t study and still don’t go to the army, and you attribute that to the army being seen as anti-Haredi, or the atmosphere in Israel being anti-Haredi?

But that, I think, is really a change from the last few years you described. We saw—and you probably know the numbers better—after the Tal Law and the establishment of the Haredi Nahal, Netzah Yehuda, we saw a sudden increase, and more and more Haredim enlisted. Then in the years after, when criminal sanctions and all that started, we suddenly saw a drop. So you attribute that mainly to anti-Haredi incitement against Haredi ideology, which you say can’t be beaten?

The question is what happens with us—meaning, regardless of that, isn’t it more comfortable for us to stay tucked away in our own spaces? And can you really be in the army and still remain just as Haredi?

"Look, the army set up frameworks long ago that are more suited to Haredim. If more Haredim come, they’ll set up more frameworks, and Haredim can also demand more options for observance.

"The need to create such frameworks is the most important need. Meaning, you can’t call Haredim to come to a place that changes their entire way of life. He’s lived a certain way all his years, his family has lived that way since he was born, and suddenly you put him in a place where that can’t work.

"On the other hand, that’s not something that should exempt people from the army. If you’re not studying, come to the army, and they’ll give you the right framework—but only if you’re not studying."

Describe your efforts a bit, the field you worked in—Shahar Kachol, I assume, all those things. Tell me a bit about how it looked, the challenges, the successes, and where it stands today compared to what you saw.

"Shahar Kachol is the best example of how you can work with the Haredi public. When I was the rabbi of the Air Force, the Air Force commander, Major General Eliezer Shkedi, wanted Haredim to join the army—he was short on soldiers. That was the reason.

"He didn’t come and say, ‘Gentlemen, Haredim, you’re parasites, sitting at home, studying, doing nothing, come.’ No, he didn’t come like that. He said, ‘Friends, I need soldiers. You need a livelihood? Please, win-win. You come to the army, you learn a trade in the army, you work in that trade so you can later go out with a profession you’ve got experience in. You’ll benefit from it, I need soldiers, I’ll benefit from it.’ It’s good for both sides.

"The moment he approached it that way—not with coercion, not with threats, not with sanctions, and he didn’t try to pull people out of yeshivas—the Haredi public responded. Why not? It’s a logical thing. That was Shahar’s success."

Tell me a bit about Shahar, how did it go?

"People came, each one went to learn the trade that suited him, they gave them a framework that fit. Meaning, we set rules. For example, a Haredi soldier arrives—he can’t be in the same room with girls, under no circumstances will he be in the same room, he won’t have a female commander.

"We didn’t take anything away from the secular public, we took care of the Haredi public. Meaning, there won’t be a situation where a girl commands a boy in the Haredi public. In the general public? Sure. In the Haredi public—no. And those who came, we took care of them.

"That way, they were essentially able to live while maintaining their Haredi lifestyle. Another thing—I’ll give you an example: of course, the issue of keeping kosher, of course not going to cultural events with girls, cultural events that suit the Haredi public too. Not bringing in some singer, meaning things that fit the Haredi public.

"That way, Haredim realized they could protect themselves. Another thing I was very strict about was that there’d be Torah classes, lessons where they study Gemara.

"You know what a Haredi is? Whenever people ask me what a Haredi is, I say: You can’t come and say a Haredi is someone with a black kippah, because you go into the store across the street, buy a black kippah for ten shekels, and that doesn’t make you Haredi.

"A Haredi, I defined it with two definitions: First, a Haredi is someone who studies Gemara. Someone who studies Gemara every day is usually Haredi. Second, for me, it’s someone who sends their kids to Haredi education. Broadly speaking, we understood that, of course, at that stage we couldn’t deal with where he sends his kids, but if he sits and studies Gemara, he’s from the Haredi public. And we made sure there were Torah and Gemara lessons."

Describe the successes and challenges of the Shahar Kachol track. I understand today—I don’t know if it still exists—and even if it does, there’s still no rush of Haredim to Shahar Kachol.

"Shahar still exists. We started it in the Air Force, and then it expanded to the whole army. It still exists, but unfortunately, it hasn’t grown. It hasn’t grown because, again, there’s become this distance in the country between Haredim and the general public. So it hasn’t grown, and the army hasn’t fully grasped the importance of maintaining the Haredi lifestyle.

"But the army is now looking forward. The army wants to enable Haredim to be in the army, for those who come, of course. Or as one famous poet quoted and said: ‘We don’t wake anyone from their slumber.’ Poet H.P. That’s the situation today, and if it really stays that way, then there’s a chance the issue of drafting Haredim who don’t study in yeshivas or kollels will pick up, emphasized. And then it’ll allow those who study—no one will come to them with complaints. I’m studying, whoever doesn’t study goes."

I want to ask you two questions. One: Where does the Haredi public’s responsibility lie in this situation, if at all? And the second: How does this service, which ultimately is an exclusive service with conditions, generous family payments, and minimal personal risk—how does it, in the end, calm—what do you say as a Haredi person doing this to a secular mother who says, ‘I don’t sleep at night because my son is in Golani, Givati, or the Paratroopers, and you Haredim serve in luxury conditions in the Air Force, enjoying yourselves and typing on keyboards’?

So those are two questions that might actually be the same question. Meaning, where’s the Haredi public’s responsibility in this place of frustration, and how does it ultimately calm the secular mother?

"Look, it’s clear we have great appreciation for the brave fighters, all the appreciation possible. In these days, what’s happening, great sorrow for families where tragedies occurred with sons killed or injured—we share deeply in their grief.

"Regarding the army issue, one thing I learned is that if we don’t succeed in explaining that Torah study has importance, we’ll never convince anyone. Because everything we do revolves around Torah study. If we don’t get people to understand that Torah study is truly important, we’re in trouble.

"And I think after this war, people are more—you know, unlike the disaster of this war, unlike tragedies in the Jewish people that actually harmed faith, this war, interestingly, has strengthened faith.

"I know someone very senior in the army approached me and said, ‘Listen, do me a favor, help me buy tzitzit.’ He told me, ‘Until today, I’ve bought 15,000 tzitzit,’ and asked me to help buy 40,000 tzitzit. I said, ‘40,000?’

"Now, we both know a religious soldier doesn’t need someone to bring him tzitzit—he comes with it from home. So who wants it? He explained to me, he said, ‘Know that there are soldiers who won’t go into Gaza without tzitzit.’ We’ve reached a situation of real strengthening of faith.

"I said to someone, ‘Notice, you see all the videos—what do the soldiers sing? Shomer Yisrael. You won’t see them singing VeTechazaknah.’ And I don’t know if you know what that is—VeTechazaknah was the anthem they sang in the Labor Party. You won’t see them singing VeTechazaknah or Hachita Tzomachat Shuv. You won’t see them singing that. They sing Shomer Yisrael, Shema Yisrael, all those. The nation has truly strengthened in these tough days."

But you didn’t address my question. My question is basically saying, you’ve done a lot for Haredi service in good conditions, and you’ve seen successes in it. The question is, where does it really go in the more significant areas, the more significant combat roles—why does it get stuck there and not succeed, and what does succeed gets a lot of criticism or doesn’t quite develop? Because ultimately, that’s the mother’s question.

"Look, I’ll tell you, today we’re talking about the possibility of older people joining the army. Shahar is about married people, so as not to pull people out of yeshivas.

"And there’s something we need to say honestly—there are young guys who don’t really find their place in yeshivas. Unfortunately, the army today isn’t an alternative for those guys. If one day they find a way for the army to be an alternative for those guys, and the great rabbis say, ‘Yes, it’s okay,’ then we’ll see them there for real.

"But as long as they haven’t found a way for the army to be a suitable framework for those young people, the great rabbis can’t support it…"

Why?

"I’ll tell you why. Because a young guy you take into a framework that isn’t purely Haredi—he can’t protect himself. They haven’t found a way yet for that guy to protect himself."

Even in those hermetic frameworks you mentioned earlier?

"No, you talked about fighters. What did you talk about? You talked about fighters. In the frameworks for fighters, today the situation is that Haredi soldiers don’t get there. Meaning, you can’t create a framework of proper Haredim, of mainstream Haredim."

Why? That’s exactly what I’m asking, why?

"Because there still isn’t one."

The question is whether it’s not because of the Haredim themselves. Is it only the army’s problem?

"No, not just the army’s problem, not just the army’s problem. Because the Haredi father, who has a son who doesn’t study, still can’t accept that the solution for that son who doesn’t study would be the army."

Why?

"Because he says, the army today—it’s a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. The army today gets Haredi youth who aren’t so Haredi. And I wouldn’t want my son with that youth—I’d want him in a better framework. Now, a better framework can’t be created because they don’t come. It’s a chicken-and-egg thing.

"But I think there are ideas today about how to create frameworks that better suit the higher-quality Haredi youth, whose only sin and crime is one thing—he doesn’t like to study. But it happens, there are those who don’t like to study Gemara.

"And if we really create the right framework for them, it’s very possible they’ll start showing up there."

I’m glad we opened up this point, because I think it’s the most prominent one in light of the war. This story of Haredim, so to speak, on the front lines. We all know the four Haredim in Gaza, or the ten—we know them by name because out of tens of thousands of soldiers there, it’s just a handful. And you’re basically saying the story…

"You’re exaggerating a bit…"

Hundreds?

"Hundreds. There are."

But still, it doesn’t even come close to a quarter of their representation in the population.

"True, not thousands."

And you’re saying the real reason is—and it’s important for me to hear this clearly from you if this is the reason—we still haven’t found the formula to preserve Haredi identity in the army as a fighter. That’s basically what you’re saying.

"I can’t say it’s absolute, what you said, because you see there are Hesder soldiers who do have a track that suits them, and they can protect themselves, thank God, they’re great guys."

Haredi Hesder soldiers?

"No, no."

So that’s something different. I’m talking about Haredi identity.

"I’m saying, Hesder soldiers are guys who protect themselves in terms of their Jewish observance, who protect themselves well. But in the Haredi public, we haven’t found that way yet, to create a framework that allows Haredim to really come, be fighters, and maintain their Jewish observance properly."

Is that even possible?

"I think they’re working on it. Not only is it possible, I think they’re working on it and trying. And of course, in the end, it’ll need to reach the table of the great rabbis, who we both know won’t officially approve it, but they’ll be able to live with it, so to speak."

By the way, officially, how did the great rabbis officially approve Shahar Kachol, or was it just unofficial?

"Unofficially. I’ll put it differently—the great rabbis didn’t oppose it, they didn’t approve but didn’t oppose.

"Because, look, the great rabbis are practical. If you came… if you came to one of the great rabbis and said, ‘Rabbi, I’m not studying, and I need a livelihood,’ what would he say to you? Keep sitting in kollel and not study? He’d say, ‘Go to work!’

"And if that work requires going through the army, would he tell you not to go to the army? Meaning, the great rabbis always convey the ideology. The ideology is to sit and study Torah."

Is there a change in that among the great rabbis in recent generations, or did you see the same line? Because you’re close to them all the time…

"No, I didn’t see a change. The great rabbis always thought and think that the Haredi ideology is to sit and study. So anyone they talk to, they’ll tell him, ‘Sit and study.’

"If someone comes privately, not as an ideology, privately, and says, ‘I’m not studying,’ or ‘I don’t have a livelihood,’ he’ll get the appropriate answer.

"I don’t think I’ve ever told this before—listen, it’s an important thing—when I got married, I studied in kollel. When I wanted to go to the army, for livelihood reasons, I was 25 and clean-shaven, I looked young, young for my days. And I went to ask for a blessing from Rabbi Schach. Rabbi Schach asked me, ‘Why are you going to the army?’ He thought I was a single guy.

"So I told him, ‘I’m not single, I’m married, I have kids, and I need a livelihood.’ He said to me, ‘Good luck.’ What would he say to me? I need a livelihood. What would he say? ‘Keep sitting and have no livelihood?’"

He said ‘good luck’ to you. That’s a great point to end on. But I won’t end it before asking you—if they give you, Rabbi Raved, the keys, so to speak, to design a plan that regulates the relationship between the IDF and the Haredi public, sketch me three main lines—a work plan for implementation. What needs to be done? By both the Haredi public and the army, so these relations are normal. I assume the first line would be ‘Whoever studies stays in study’…

"That’s not the first line, that’s the three lines. If the army recognizes that whoever studies is doing something important and should keep studying, then it’ll be possible to reach out to the rest of the public. As long as you don’t feel that on the street, from the government, from the army, from the public—it’s what creates the disconnect that prevents progress in this area."

And now tell me what yes—what’s the plan, how do you sketch it? Sketch the relationship between the army and the Haredi public, what needs to be done? Give me three pieces of advice on what needs to be done.

"We keep coming back to the same thing—the army needs to announce: ‘Dear friends, I really appreciate that you’re sitting and studying Torah. Whoever can study until 120, let him study until 120. Whoever can’t study, come to us.’ That’s the way, that’s the way."

And what do they do with them in the army? Where do they go with them? Just Shahar?

"The moment Haredim really come to the army following that statement, the army will set up tracks suited to Haredim to allow them, first, to maintain the lifestyle they’ve lived all these years. Second, it’ll also let them learn some trade they can use in civilian life.

"Notice, the issue of fighters is very important, very important. On the other hand, let’s not forget, it’s important to the State of Israel that the Haredi public enters the workforce, and this way they can enter the workforce, on one hand. On the other hand, when they’re in the army, they contribute a lot too. When I was in Shahar, I remember guys who got awards for inventions they came up with that the army used. Meaning, it’s not just that they came to learn a trade for themselves—the army benefited from those people."

Kikar Hashabbat contributed to this article.